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Post by Admin on Oct 25, 2015 22:58:23 GMT -6
next round of changes. I'm open to suggestions this time, given that I haven't nailed anything down yet. Here's what should be coming:
Plutocracy slightly nerfed (flat industry bonus instead of scaling) Military Rule buffed (thinking a boosted military discount, better ships, morale bonuses, or something along those lines) Shipyards buffed (can support more, supports ships by amount of upkeep instead of class) Trade slightly nerfed (increment may reduce to 1/8 or 1/10)
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Post by dragonlord7012 on Oct 25, 2015 23:18:19 GMT -6
Plutocracy; Scaling industry bonus is fine. But it needs a cap. Reccomending making it system level equivlanet to the highest tier of industry on a given system. +5: you have a terrestrial industrial sector, +10, you have an orbital, +15 you have a system sector that produces industry. Thus you have to EXPAND both with more planets and with how high tier you go if you want to really start benefiting. Military Rule: //biased// A direct fix to counter the economic suck would be nice. Essentially "You loose 20% of your economy" is the malus, but turning around and applying that to ships should be the plus. Its where you faction SHOULD excel. I see the faction functioning a bit like buying military sectors. You loose out on a lot of economy by having them, but when it comes to fighting, you get lots of benefits. Making the faction really good at spamming ships would be one way to go, The governement is ran by a military, they should be able to set up discounts towards their own goals and in space ships are king of combat. -1 cr per module might be a good one, Or discounting upkeep costs. (double shipyard effectiveness, see below.) Shipyards, i'd say they would do well to provide a simple flat "Pays X upkeep cost" <thinking 3-5 or thereabouts. System structures are a lot more vulnerable IIRC> Trade: What is it like to have people give you money? Most people only want to give me bullets. At high velocity
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Post by I Like Turtles on Oct 26, 2015 7:39:27 GMT -6
Not sure I can handle learning more things...
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Post by dragonlord7012 on Oct 27, 2015 16:18:07 GMT -6
..I think it needs to be said. But Order Producing Sectors are more and more a terrible idea the more i think about it.
For these reason:
1: Governements get shat on: Why the hell would i play a hive mind when i can literally just throw up an orbital and get a free agent, and economy to boot. My race sharing its subconscious is eqivalant to a spacestation. A nice one granted. A lot of races provide negative order as a penalty. But who cares, order is purchaseable. Now compare it to a different goverment type that SCALES with the size of the people. This is a big problem in the governmental design phylosophy, because some races get a flat bonus, and some get a scaling one.
2: Order affect agents. Thus by having order you nullify enemy agents. This is a reasonable mechanic, but only when getting it to lofty heights is difficult.
3: It makes bad order not matter. Why would anyone have bad order when they literally can just BUY order. Get it to 10, ignore forever. -5 due to people exploding? Meh whatever. my people are well orginized, and it will get better in 3 turns.
Order should be something that is HARD to get. It makes the government agent worth while, and the non-stacking nature means that you have to pay attention to what is going on, and actively DO things. Events that affect order should be felt.
Now i'm assuming that reasons that spawned order producing structures are still there Let my try and offer some solutions;
1) A very quick fix is to make ALL racial penalties/boons on order scale. that -2 is -2 per system level. That +2 is +2 per system level. So a System Tier level star will have +6 order as the massive cluster of minds in the area drive them to a single purpose. A Corrupt governement gets WORSE as they get larger and larger. giving -4 when orbitals are available to hold clandestine meetings without too many watchful eyes.
The penalty with Hive Mind works well. It Stacks, and applies to everything for a while. So a run of bad luck can leave your people unfettered and lost as beacons of light in their subconcious are suddenly void and dark.
2) IT needs to matter Much Less. Enemy agents should be the primary and core counter for agents. Get it up to 100, it only gives a maximum of +4 to dc or something like that.
3) No easy fix. I guess if they purchased 5+ orbital i cant really complain, but it still rubs me the wrong way. Perhaps making same tier structures not stack? I don't really know, and i'm not sure how bad ppl would be getting screwed. Something i've tried to avoid in these suggestions.
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Post by zurajai on Oct 27, 2015 17:35:51 GMT -6
To put into perspective, to take full advantage of my trait I needed to buy two orbitals, two terrestrials, a government agent, it be my capital, have the bonus +2 from my trait, have two armies stationed in the area, AND get a unique character who added +1. That's four sectors that will not be producing science, industry, or the highly lucrative trade route. I agree that the penalties and bonuses that involve simple -2 order or +2 order are a bit convoluted now and should be changed but in all honesty, Order buildings are important. Armies should not be the only reasonable way to get your civilization into top tier order.
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Post by dragonlord7012 on Oct 27, 2015 18:03:51 GMT -6
You trait is not listed in your application, so no clue what exactly it intails. I'm guessing you have better order benefits, and a higher cap. Im kind of Ehh when ppl say their faction has to do things to make it work, because my own is made of that kind of thing. military governements have to do that to get the maximum out of their benefit To get those cool armies w/ free traits you have to use up a sector. In order to get the benefit of my trait i have to be eating people and Winning army combats. Which i cant do if i don't win navy battles first, which i don't have the economy to do. Cuz Military government doesn't really do much to help. I know EXACTLY what its like having a trait that doesn't pay off all the time. But the fact that it is harder to get better payouff doesn't really negate my points. It's not that they are inherently bad. Its that their existence in a system that was initially designed to not have them, throws things out of wack. It negates penalties/bonuses of government. Hurts agent use too much. Is too easy to get high enough to ignore problems.
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Post by zurajai on Oct 27, 2015 21:28:28 GMT -6
But those problems don't exist because of the buildings, they exist because the penalties of some government types are worse than others. That's all that needs to be changed and order sectors will be fine. And it's not listed on my app because I chose to wait and receive one better suited to how I rp'd my nation later on in the roleplay. Your case is a fine example of why I didn't choose one in the beginning; I didn't know what could change and didn't know what was good or bad.
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Post by dragonlord7012 on Oct 28, 2015 11:39:33 GMT -6
Waiting to pick a trait is fine, but sometimes changes hurt yoru faction. You think i was happy w/ the Military Sector nerf? My ONLY real production was armies, my entire homeworld. And suddenly i have to pay for their replacements instead of being able to count on them replacing themselves.
So instead of 5 beneficial sectors, i then had 5 liabilities. And i could no longer rely on my VERY CONCEPT of how my faction could work, making military and attacking people for income, to work. Because i had ZERO way to recover from a series of bad raids. They wern't even unbalanced numerically.
A Economic sector produces 25 economy. A Industrial sector produces 15 economy + 10 Production=25. A Military Sector produces 10 economy, + free Army two turns later (10 production, +30 economy /2 turns = 20) = 30. -SO, they where 5 points ahead when constantly producing miiltary, but their efficiency is only during a watrime scenario. WHen not rebuilding armies they only have a tiny economy, and give a bonus when defending versus invasion.
At any rate. I got screwed a bit by them now charging (and lets be honest, 50% discount, or 1 credit off, is kind of useless), because they didn't fix the cost/benefit of building military sectors, which i'd maxed out on. (I'd planned on lettin my armies auto-rez and building ships w/ whatever economy i mannaged) But shit happens.
If a nerf comes along and your trait isn't as effective, again i feel for you, but it happens.
The issue shouldn't be barred from being addressed because one player gets hit harder for it, alternatives can be worked out.
If its Really is bad enough that you feel validated in making an issue of it, You would probably be allowed to tweak it to make the change less detrimental.
You can preempt the problem as well, by offering alternative fixes to the issues at hand.
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Post by zurajai on Oct 28, 2015 13:24:49 GMT -6
It's not even about effective. It makes it impossible to use.
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Post by dragonlord7012 on Oct 28, 2015 14:46:54 GMT -6
Don't know really what to tell ya. You're not actually describing the problem other past the fact that for some reason you need very high order for your faction trait to work, so i can't really argue for or against it. (Which is fine if you wanna keep your trait to yourself, i can see the benefit in doing so.) As i'd originally stated when i brought it up, there IS a problem with order for the listed reasons i posted, and they do need to be addressed. I did try to offer solutions to the problems i listed as well ( so i wasn't just complaining ) To restate the problems I'd observed; -People who have a govermental malus/boon can either too easily overcome it, or are taking malus with a now marginal benefit. -Agent DC's are set by order, and it is way to easy to shut down agents. Originally 3-5 order was really good. Now 10 isn't hard to attain at all. -The inflation of ORDER has mad circumstantial penalties a bit pointless. Your lone terrestrial planet across the map besieged by pirates is in top top shape thanks to good paperwork. If it is REALLY that big of an issue, you could just ask that your terrestrial Sectors produce +1 order. Then you have to Terra form to raise it higher but you still can get a nice boost, as your people inherently work better the larger the system. (I'm making this suggestion blind and with the hypothetical removal of order producing buildings. A move i am not necessarily advocating; I would like a fix, but it certainly doesn't have to be brute force.)
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