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Robots
Nov 15, 2015 2:46:26 GMT -6
Post by bridgekeeper3 on Nov 15, 2015 2:46:26 GMT -6
For awhile now, I had been thinking of how to implement robots into the game. Thinking traits could help in a particular army like "robots: bonus against monkeys" (points for getting the reference) but I feel it may not do it them justice. Robotic armies are essentially a gigantic kick in the dick for Assimovs laws of robotics, unquestioning, relentless and built exclusively to to injure and/or maim. Because of their mechanical nature, they may not need credits as upkeep (though it may be justified as paying for engineers). Though in implementing robots as soldiers or even just playing a civilization that's replacing their kind with them for all sorts of labor, could change the rules for how it plays. Besides, the reasons for replacing unskilled workers and soldiers with machines is that they work for free, don't need rest and are consistent in performance.
Proposals
Synthetic Auxiliary
Cost: 15 industry, 1 science Upkeep is paid in industry instead of credits (maintenance mostly)
Morale rolls (positive or negative) don't apply to robots (depending on their sentience which is a whole other can of worms)
Vulnerable to electromagnetic phenomena (unless they are hardened which will count as a custom trait)
Don't count towards biomass totals (sorry d'lord) but can possibly be scrapped
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Robots
Nov 15, 2015 6:56:50 GMT -6
Post by dragonlord7012 on Nov 15, 2015 6:56:50 GMT -6
Robots would still have credit cost for upkeep. Parts arn't free. And if you can make robots that can fight autonomously, you can make robots that repair themselves. Self upkeep isn't that hard compared to predicting enviorments and large scale logistics and descision making which would all be required for a robot army. To take it further, there really isnt any reason if you have these autonomous robot armies you couldn't automate the rest of your society. Robot reproduction is von neumann in nature, thus you pretty much should "win" at that point without some limiting factor on your robot population. Like each robot only has a chance to produce spaience with each unit based upon unknown/uncontrollable micro-flaws in their production. If not, like i said robots win in space. They can ignore habitability of a system. They only need energy production(easy w/ future tech) and certain (common on a stellar level) raw minerals such as iron, silicon, and gold. You can ignore a lot of societal and philosophical nuances by simply disregarding them as irrelevant, which in a machines eye they very well may be. By this point, you might as well just play the robots as they are going to be the ones doing everything. The problem with automation is that if you species is capable of producing it intelligent on the scale you are talking, your species is primarily robots which either take care of humans or robots by themselves, for Whatever Reasons that may of caused it. IMHO what you are suggesting wouldn't be an "Option" it would be a faction in and of itself. A species that revolves on the working of sentient, possibly sapient machines. If your going to play a robot faction tho, do somethign fun with it. Theologistic robots for instance. I thin k the tecnology to implement such a thing would be out of reach for most of the factions by default, based upon what i've observed. An army with a trait perhaps. But an entire force seems a bit much in my opinion without faction flavor to back it up. If this was your intial suggestion, i ceratinly would see it. (And my bugs would probably completely ignore them given half a chance.) I actually had a friend that was planning to join playing robots (we would of teamed up to have both evil bugs AND evil robots , too bad he changed his mind.) but figuring out how to balance such a faction would of been a nightmare to accomplish while keeping with all the appropriate abilities that a robot faction would have.
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Robots
Nov 15, 2015 8:34:27 GMT -6
Post by I Like Turtles on Nov 15, 2015 8:34:27 GMT -6
If you want to have a society that uses Robots (say for military purposes) then I think that would be just a trait you put on your army. You could add more traits depending on how tough you want the specific robots to be. Also it depends on the level of AI your robots have, low (star wars prequel droids *shudders*), hi (terminators), or sentience (cylons/geth).
Some cool military traits: - Machine Men: Units never suffer from low morale but never benefit from high morale. - Machine Minds: Units have perfect military strategy and react favorably to traps or ambushes. - Interface: Once an enemy ship is successfully boarded or enemy stronghold is successfully occupied, control of said ship/stronghold is immediate.
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Robots
Nov 15, 2015 15:06:06 GMT -6
Post by dragonlord7012 on Nov 15, 2015 15:06:06 GMT -6
IIRC Traited armies only apply to a single unit within that army. Like a when you purchase a trait for an army w/ -2 units, you have 1 unit that has it. Thus you could make it like -2=1 specilized unit , -4=2 specilized unit -6=3. specilized unit
So at a maximum you could have 3 infantry of robots, and 1 other in an army by sacrificing units.
I guess technically you could argue that you get -8 for two units that both possess two traits each, which could probably cover all the perks of being a robot. (This is a GM thing, don't know if you can)
Then you could build/combine 5 such armies. But you would be paying the upkeep of 5 armies worth for one fully traited army. (Again not sure if this would even work)
You also might be able to spend 2 traits to have the first apply to all other units. "Robot Infantry: One unit is made of robots" + "Robot Battalion: Robot Infantry applies to all infantry in the army."
(I don't think Admin would let this pass tho. I tried something similar with one of my armies, I think he is just treating it as me having 2 units w/ it.)
The fact that it specifically hoses a single players faction ability (my own in this case) is also something to frown upon. Letting everyone make robots is fine, but a bit unfair to allow them to suddenly and explicably be massed.
Take Spork for example, with his Fighter-craft based trait, if Admin let implement a PD "mod" that automatically detected nearby enemy stealth units at close range with PD that cost +1 science, he would most certainly be cheesed off that his stealth bombers are suddenly useless.
Its a bit of a hyperbolla, as the system doesn't support it, but i don't know of anyone else who has Army based traits off the top of my head. But if they did and you proposed something that would effectively render it pointless in mass, i'd look askew at the suggestion as well. (This is also why i've completely dropped the idea of losing Administration sectors incidentally from the other thread, as i found out that Wuxian needs them, and he certainly shouldn't get screwed on his faction trait.)
Also, if you had the ability to create Robot Armies, why havn't your people been doing so from the start? And the proposed Alternate pay system for them seems a bit much too. You not only get what seem like superior fighting forces, but you can pay for them with alternative funds?
Again, it just seems like it would be a either a faction in and of itself to field robots. Or a very long term research project.
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Robots
Nov 15, 2015 15:37:09 GMT -6
Post by blarflesnarflo on Nov 15, 2015 15:37:09 GMT -6
This seems very relevant to me, considering I was going to have Homunculi soldiers...
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Robots
Nov 16, 2015 0:02:37 GMT -6
Post by I Like Turtles on Nov 16, 2015 0:02:37 GMT -6
Dlord, you're definitely on to something that there should be some sort of overarching racial trait for the Robots, but as far as specialized units go, keep in mind that all bots are not made alike. Cheap ones with limited functionality and weaponry (infantry) would be easier to kill than the massive ones with slabs of armor and heavy weapons (armored). Flying units could just be drones, and artillery units would be little more than automated tanks or just, like, a shell launcher on wheels.
I point this out because if you just want to play a numbers game you could take one trait (maybe just the "robot" trait that makes them automatons) and have 8 units to play with. Army is smaller as a whole but the "robot" trait makes up for it due to functionality.
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Robots
Nov 16, 2015 0:37:54 GMT -6
Post by dragonlord7012 on Nov 16, 2015 0:37:54 GMT -6
As i've been lead to understand it, traits only apply to a single mark within a unit. take for example;
If that single unit if infantry dies, the trait is lost. Because only ONE unit had that trait. You can loose your traited group during any battle, but they roll for it. Also, to my knowledge you can't give one unit two traits. (I have not checked for certain* )
would be valid. Both single squadrons have special abilty.
Would not, because you have one unit that has two traits.
[requesting some mod to confirm/debunk this btw]
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Robots
Nov 16, 2015 1:53:05 GMT -6
Post by zurajai on Nov 16, 2015 1:53:05 GMT -6
That is not the case. It depends completely on the trait assigned. Traits most certainly do not apply to a single checkmark.
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Robots
Nov 16, 2015 17:04:47 GMT -6
Post by dragonlord7012 on Nov 16, 2015 17:04:47 GMT -6
The way Talis explained it to me was they did, like w/ my Anti-Ship artillary. I'd only have 1 unit of them, not my entire armies worth. Well, if the mods approve it, I'll spam "robot" bugs as well as normal bugs. So hey i could likley near double my army size (Robot bugs are emty carapaces w/ modified tissue cells, and nervous systems that only require laberous upkeep, but no food. PRetty much zombies) I still think it should be a Faction, not just something that eveyrone should suddenly start getting.
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Robots
Nov 16, 2015 18:21:49 GMT -6
Post by I Like Turtles on Nov 16, 2015 18:21:49 GMT -6
Why not? It's a science fiction game. Why can't someone make a robot army?
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Robots
Nov 16, 2015 20:43:40 GMT -6
Post by bridgekeeper3 on Nov 16, 2015 20:43:40 GMT -6
I guess they can be something that has to be "unlocked" or cost science in addition to credits. Like investing a lot of science into some crazy research project (or even just reverse engineering) to be able to use robotic armies. Maybe make it a big change or something like automation or in my intended case, some sort of caste to replace the paladins. But I do agree that we shouldn't all start spamming machines just because it would make everyone virtually the same. Though who knows, maybe bugs can scrap machines and turn them into armor. Though these types of science projects may get a little ridiculous when someone makes time travel or finds a way to open up portals into other dimensions or even reach singularity.
Also d'lord, undead bugs sound pretty badass
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Robots
Nov 17, 2015 20:50:53 GMT -6
Post by RWU on Nov 17, 2015 20:50:53 GMT -6
I'm with dlord here, the robots idea sounds so powerful that it would have to be a nation trait. "This is science fiction" is not a valid excuse for game-breaking mechanics.
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Robots
Nov 17, 2015 23:01:24 GMT -6
Post by I Like Turtles on Nov 17, 2015 23:01:24 GMT -6
I'm with dlord here, the robots idea sounds so powerful that it would have to be a nation trait. "This is science fiction" is not a valid excuse for game-breaking mechanics. It's only powerful or "game breaking" if you allow it to be. I find the idea of putting the kibosh on robotic units in a science fiction game utterly ridiculous.
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Robots
Nov 18, 2015 22:03:57 GMT -6
Post by RWU on Nov 18, 2015 22:03:57 GMT -6
There's a whole lotta scifi universes out there with no robot armies. A whole lot. So I find it not at all ridiculous to exclude them, except for a player who wants that as a trait.
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Robots
Nov 19, 2015 10:11:46 GMT -6
Post by I Like Turtles on Nov 19, 2015 10:11:46 GMT -6
But robotics isn't a trait, it's technology. When I proposed my Space Mages eons ago it was denied because I wanted it to be a trait unique to my people and one of the biggest concerns against it was that it wasn't technology anybody could just pick up and use. If you rule against a racial trait that should be technology (whether it's magical space ships or robots) then that should always be the rule. Not allowing robots unless it's a trait is a direct contradiction to that rule.
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