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Post by dragonlord7012 on Oct 17, 2015 13:41:37 GMT -6
I can support this. They work similarly to Military Sectors when supporting ships. They provide discount to credits, and free upkeep. But you must build the ship yourself. For a personal interpretation; Many popular Sci-Fi ships are very poorly scaled, most ships are massive, and require much more coordination to get together than say an army, which is just a learned skill and some organization. Likewise, The science involved can be representative of the experts needed to be taught, and the technology needed to go into it. So they cannot be supplemented. The part you save on is credits, because your shipyard has lots of replacement parts on hand, it sells to private ships as well thus generating income. Also the upkeep can be covered because they simply keep the people, and transport vessels on hand and government owned to ferry out needed resources, human and technical. You can say that all your ship supplies are coming from your single shipyard aesthetically, but they are having to bring in outside contractors, and only have so much to supply with on hand. To get more on hand, you have to expand the orbital, IE build another Shipyard I'm taking some liberties w/ my interpretation/Justifications but overall it works out pretty well.
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Post by I Like Turtles on Oct 22, 2015 13:58:35 GMT -6
New Question: Is the amount of Orbital sectors and System sectors based only off of the number of terrestrial sectors on the first habitable world, or on the number of habitable sectors in the system? For instance if I have 5 habitable sectors and 3 uninhabitable but then terraform them giving me 8 terrestrial sectors, do I then have the space for 8 orbital and/or system sectors?
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Post by zurajai on Oct 22, 2015 15:24:01 GMT -6
Every one terrestrial sector gives you an orbital sector which gives you a system sector.
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Post by I Like Turtles on Oct 22, 2015 15:34:50 GMT -6
I thank you.
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Post by dragonlord7012 on Oct 22, 2015 16:20:19 GMT -6
Bringing up a previous point; Im a bit of a power gamer, and i've noticed a fairly large disparity in the factions now. Note: WIth the ability to have both agents that provide order, and orbitals that provide economy/agents/order. Order boons and penalties are a bit of a joke now. Tier 0: Overpowered Tier Plucractic: UNLIMITED SCALING labor vs order penalty. No limit on structurs you can build as far as i can tell, and order penalties are easily overcame. Tier 1: Balanced Tier Democracy: Limited Economy boost, vs voting shenanigans. The economy boost is NICE, but it is well balanced vs limited number of players/systems to inhabit, and voting can really stir up problems, especially when other players get involved (Asp ) Hivemind/Theocracy: Agent boost vs and order penalties. Agent boost are nice, and order penalties are easily overcame. Lackluster, but well balanced. Tier 3: Under-powered Tier Dynistic. Order boost vs 50/50 bad agent. This could use a fix, but the fact that you don't HAVE to use agents, and can disband your flawed agents into some cushy job if they suck makes it fairly easy to get around. Having ALL agents have a negative and a positive quality might be a good fix. Tier 4: Weak Tier. Military Law: Build things that give tiny economy for, lackluster benefits vs 20% economy loss. "Opportunity Cost" is a very real thing. And military governements lose out all over the place as they can sink large ammounts of their weakened economy into tollerable benefits. //The following is a just bit of a rant, and i do not presume to claim I'm not biased. Military rules is INCREDIBLY weak. And it was weak even back when military sectors provided free replacements after each turn. I worked out the math, that they where pretty much exactly ON PAR with the benefit of other sectors at the time. You gained a net of around 5 economy or labor, but that benefit comes at the cost of only applying towards military goals. The only time a Military sector "paid" for itself, was when its army was either providing use, or being replaced for free to coutneract the downside of the loss of resources you would of otherwised gained. With the nerf, the are terrible outside of the SINGLe instance where you are being invaded/bombed. Which probably wouldn't of happened if you could of just afforded ships.(See next section) Spaceports suck. At max a space port can support two 2cr/turn ship. and provide 25% discount, rounded down, to the purchase. Math wise, that works out to about 1-4 credits off purchasing (For a 5 min -18 max credit ship respctively) and 4 credits per a turn. The orbial itelf however has a cost as well, so you have to pay for this big expensive orbital too, that allows you get said small discount on relatively cheap ships. Unless you are planing on spawning and keeping a MASSIVE fleet, i really don't see much a point in even having the ship supporting orbital structures, as its so horrifically expensive to actually make good use of them. Tack on the fact that In addition to all these options where you can pay extra money to suck, you get your economy cut by 20%. Yea, Military governemnt could use a boost. //end rant
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Post by killer spork on Oct 22, 2015 16:24:58 GMT -6
Agreeed, military government really, really needs a boost. It's very under-powered in comparison to democracy and plutocracy. I think orbital spaceports could also use a boost. I'd double the amount that they could support, four destroyers or two frigates. I do think the sector space port is good though. Two upkeep free cruisers is pretty good.
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Post by zurajai on Oct 22, 2015 17:40:33 GMT -6
I have to agree with a whole lot of what is said here. Plutocracy is by far the most overpowered government type in the system and suffers very little for it's incredible bonuses. Military sectors are not severely under-powered because they have a non-metric effect which is determined by the moderator at the time and, indeed, can be either quite highly weak or highly strong on their scale depending on the individual. Orbital Shipyards, however, are incredibly pointless. Having done the math myself, there is no point whatsoever to build them. It is far cheaper and cost effective to build things like Orbital Factories or Orbital Spaceports. Agreeing with Spork, the System Shipyard is pretty balanced though I would recommend allowing it to support a single Battleship.
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Post by dragonlord7012 on Oct 22, 2015 21:40:17 GMT -6
Giving Shipyard Battleships sits well with me on an asthetic level. I think they set up the way they are because they had to "balance" against military governments getting additional ship support from them (2 Battleships would be too much, but none at all seems a bit off because a "flagship" seems like the kind of thing you would support with one.) Also, i think a "Scaling" support system might be nice. you can have a LOT of tiny frigates, a Couple cruisers, or a single battleship. Essentially support +1 more each level you go down. Sure you might have lots of little corvettes, but they will have a hard time surviving against a battleship as their defenses wont be nearly as good.
Changing both the shipyards and the Military government seems like a bit much, but at the same time it would allow for a solution to both to be found instead of patching it. For the record, im' deeply AGAISNT simply increasing the shipyard's economy. The people who most need a shipyard fix would be military governments, because they need them to be the tool which offsets their economy loss, and to be worth the investment. Increasing economy would benefits everyone else more due to the inherent penalty, which is already detracted from the overall goal of making more ships due to the investment of having to build them in the first place.
I'd personally envision the yards as being "Ship Enablers" , that works even better for military people who wanted military might as their primary source of weight to throw around.
Perhaps making ships cheaper by 1cr per module, to a minimum of 1cr per module. No science reduction, no production reduction. And warmongers can make and replace ships much more effectively, But they won't be tremendously overpowered due to still requiring Science for the really nice stuff. Essentially, you can spam your army, and keep it too.
I'm just throwing out ideas here, but i think both could use a revamp.
As an aside, a quick fix for Plutocracy is to simply have it only act once, at the system level. If you system has an orbital production level it provides +10 from that system. If you have only a terran industry, it provides only +5. If you build a System level upgrade, that system now receives a +15 instead. Removing the endless stacking would be a very quick fix.
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Post by RWU on Oct 23, 2015 0:04:05 GMT -6
Yeah, the Democracy bonus is supposed to be the economic "equivalent" of the Plutocracy industry bonus, but the scale is nowhere near the same. I get a total of +25 Economy from my bonus at the moment, not a whole lot. The malus isn't too bad, but neither is the Plutocracy one now that Administrative Sectors/Stations are a thing.
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Post by dragonlord7012 on Oct 23, 2015 0:43:42 GMT -6
I would like a sector that reduces my money penalty...In the interest of fairness
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Post by I Like Turtles on Oct 24, 2015 23:26:52 GMT -6
Huh?
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Post by RWU on Oct 24, 2015 23:48:01 GMT -6
You don't have enough terrestrial sectors in the Skorax Nebula to support orbitals.
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Post by dragonlord7012 on Oct 24, 2015 23:50:59 GMT -6
It takes 4 terrstial sectors to "unlock" orbitals it takes 4 Orbital to "unlock" System.
You can still make them while they are "locked" but you get hit w/ a penalty. Not sure if it is proportional to how many you are missing , or if it is for Each locked sector, or if it is a one time penalty for overreaching your support infrastructure.
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Post by I Like Turtles on Oct 25, 2015 13:41:56 GMT -6
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Post by I Like Turtles on Oct 28, 2015 11:14:16 GMT -6
Are there rules in place for converting a ship blueprint to another? I couldn't find it (maybe I'm blind) if there is one. I ask because I have a few ideas for light ships which will essentially make my Marauder MK 1 obsolete.
Also is there a procedure for converting actual ships? Say if I wanted to retrofit a MK 1 into a MK 2 would I just pay the extra cost? Or is that even a thing yet?
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